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#137: Being Choosable™ in Business with Belinda Weaver

April 23, 2024

Have you ever struggled with finding your USP (unique selling proposition) or “what makes you different” in your industry as a business owner? If so, you’re not alone!

In this episode of The Quiet Rebels® Podcast I’m super excited to be joined by a returning guest on the show – Copywriting Mentor, Belinda Weaver!

In this conversation we discussed:

Why we don’t need to have a USP or a differentiator to be hired for our services
The 5 P’s of Choosability
The Bowling Analogy of Being a Stellar Service Provider
1 Question to Help You Know Which Parts of Your Personality to Show
How to Find Your Own Choosability Factors

& more!

Click below for the links mentioned in this episode:

Transcript:

Mai-kee Tsang: [00:00:00] Hello, my wonderful Quiet Rebels. This episode is such a special occasion because I actually have a returning guest on the show. And what’s really, really amazing is that this guest’s episode actually was by far one of the most popular of all time in the history of this podcast. So I’m super, super excited to bring her back, especially because this is around a topic that I have a quite a lot of us actually struggle with.

If you’ve ever struggled with figuring out what makes you different, what’s your USP, your unique selling proposition, etc, etc, this episode is 100 percent for you, because the wonderful Belinda Weaver is back with us today, and we’re going to be talking about how to be choosable. AKA finding your people in a sea of the spaces that we’re in, basically.

So, Belinda, thank you so much for coming back to the Quiet Rebels podcast.

Belinda Weaver: Ah, thank you for inviting me. I’m really excited to dig into this and we always have great conversations, so I know this will be no different.

Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, yes. [00:01:00] One hundred percent.

So before we get into all of the juiciness, for those who have yet to have had the pleasure of getting to know you, could you just give us a bit of a background of what you currently do in your line of work and how it’s led you to this kind of quiet rebellion of sorts about really kind of letting go of needing the USPs and the differentiators and being choosable.

So yeah, give us the background and lead us into your rebellion.

Belinda Weaver: Well, I’m a copywriter by trade. And now I’m a copy coach. So now I work with aspiring and working and scaling copywriters, helping them create a business that fuels their life rather than burns them out. And this is basically a reflection of my own journey as a copywriter.

And one of the biggest influences on that mission to build a business that you love was, of course, the pandemic when we were all working really hard under incredible circumstances. And that’s when I started making some decisions about what I wanted to do [00:02:00] with my work, how I wanted to feel about my work, and also prioritizing things that were happening outside of my work.

Because of course, when I started my copywriting business 2009, so many years ago, I loved it. I found my obsession. I was incredibly passionate about this new thing that I was in control of my I really enjoyed the work and I was challenged in ways that I’d never been challenged before so I just dove right in but of course I had no experience running a business I had no experience outside the kind of corporate work zone so my business grew with me having absolutely no boundaries in place no no idea about how to differentiate myself in a marketplace because I’d only done corporate marketing before and how to have impactful moments with prospective clients.

That would turn them into ongoing clients, all the things that we have to figure out as a business owner, that can be really, really difficult when you’re [00:03:00] just starting out. Cause you’re like, Oh, I was certainly like, not only am I trying to learn copywriting, but I’m trying to learn what it means to run a business.

And then all of a sudden I’m doing, I’m doing the marketing and I’m doing the books and I’m doing sales and all these things that I hadn’t had to do before. And it’s. It’s a lot to take on. It’s a lot. So there were lots of moments in my journey where I realized that I had to make some changes, that I had to skill up, and that I also had to let go.

So that’s really part of it, is letting go of some of these. Tropes that we’re told are very important because, you know, I know when we’re talking about being unique and different, this is very common. And I was like, I don’t know, like, how am I, how am I going to be different to all the other copywriters out there?

I just don’t know. And I can’t wait in this space of not knowing. So I just have to get on with running a business. [00:04:00]

Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, there’s so much there. And in the green room, you and I were chatting about how in school, we often don’t want to find out what makes us different. We want to find out what makes us the same.

So when we actually grow into adulthood and actually start building our own careers, and in this case our own businesses, some of that we can still carry with us. Like, Oh, I’m not sure if I want to stand out because back then it was safer to be the same. So yeah, like tell us about how we can kind of start letting go that if that actually might be subconsciously still in our.

Belinda Weaver: Oh, psyche, you know, yeah, and I just like to touch on briefly why we need. Why it’s important to let go of this idea of uniqueness in, it’s in all the marketing textbooks we need a USP, unique selling proposition, we need our unique differentiator, we’re in an elevator pitch, we need to explain what we do and who we do it for and why we’re different, why we’re doing something that no one else is doing when you start out.[00:05:00]

You’re like, Oh, I’m, I’m doing totally what everyone else is doing. And when you’re part of communities, like we have nowadays, like I have my copywriting community, you’re learning systems and processes, you’re learning, taking programs, you’re getting coaching, and that gets you through a lot of things faster, but it can also help you.

Really get stuck going, well, how am I different? I’m too new at this. It takes a lot of confidence to be able to go, Oh, I know now why people choose me. And so in those first couple of years, I see so many copywriters and freelancers get stuck on this. They really get hung up. Like I have to figure this out.

And if I don’t figure it out, then I won’t be successful. It’s a, it’s a call to action. Part of this success formula, and I have to figure it out. And when I’m talking to copywriters, I’m like, don’t worry about it. No, don’t like, don’t stress about this part of it. Get on [00:06:00] with all these other things that you can shine a spotlight on.

And trust me that. You will figure it out. It will come to you. You will discover it the more you run into business, but you have to get unstuck first. And so that’s the letting go piece of going, okay, I don’t know this yet, and I actually am not entirely sure I do need to know it because when clients are looking for a service provider.

I’m talking copywriters, but it’s any service provider when I’m hiring, I want to know that you can solve my problem, that you have solved it for other people and that the experience of working with you is going to be one that I either enjoy or that I’m aligned with in some ways. And so they’re the kind of three choices we make, and I’m not necessarily looking for the best person in the whole world and internet.

I’m looking for someone. [00:07:00] Who has entered my world, who I can look into and see, can I solve them? My problem, have I solved it for other people? And do we have some kind of spark or alignment that means this experience is going to be a good one? And that’s really the core of being choosable. I want to choose someone that feels like the right choice right here and now.

And so in that respect, you’re, you’re not competing with everyone. You’re not competing with the best. You’re just. In the pool that you’re in right now and I think that’s where when you think how can I make myself more choosable to the right people we start thinking instead of going what can I shine a spotlight on that other people are looking for and this is the finding your people.

Because we’re looking and I, I have put it into a, a five P framework, because even as a copywriter, I was like, Oh my God, I have to write another plumbing website. How [00:08:00] am I going to make this plumber sound different to the last three plumbers I wrote about? Cause they’re all kind of doing the same thing.

And that’s when I really started going, okay, well, I have to shine a spotlight on different parts of how they do their business and why they do their business. Thanks. And the people behind the business. So

Mai-kee Tsang: they’re

Belinda Weaver: just parts of those five

Mai-kee Tsang: P’s. And we will dive deeper into those five P’s later on in this conversation.

As soon as you said plumbers, I immediately thought of the Super Mario Brothers because, because I watched that, I watched the movie the other day and it’s just, oh, it’s just, it’s just wonderful. Anyway, that’s a complete side note. But I know that you actually have a story as to when you started leaning more into your own.

own personality and actually came at a shock to someone you were meeting in person for the first time. Could you, could you tell us a bit more about that and how it actually links back to what you’re saying here about being choosable?

Belinda Weaver: Absolutely. It was a, it was a really crystallizing [00:09:00] moment for me because I hadn’t been in business that long and I’d come from my corporate job.

So I was like, I need to be in air quotes professional. Like I, you know, I, I had tattoos. I had short ginger hair and I was like, Oh, I can’t. Show up like that because business people want professional people, just, you know, it’s funny what we think people want. So when I built my website, it was very vanilla because I was like, I really don’t know enough about what I’m doing.

I’m not confident enough to take risks. My headshot was a very corporate, safe looking, very boring headshot. But again, I was like, I want to be safe. I want to be professional. I don’t want to be risky. And then I went to meet another copywriter for lunch. She was traveling down from Sydney. I was in Melbourne, Australia, and we were meeting at a dumpling house and I was walking straight towards her.

She locked eyes with me and then completely bounced [00:10:00] off me. Like just. Did not recognize me at all, which was a bit confronting, but then we, you know, I finally introduced myself. So there was that initial shock of like, Oh, how I’m showing up. Visually online is not how I’m showing up visually in person.

And then halfway through the dumpling lunch, she said to me, you know, you’re way more interesting in person. I did not think you would be this much, this much fun again, confronting moment number two, where I was like, what she goes, you’re marketing. It’s so boring. I thought you would be boring too. I was like, Oh, and you know what?

All hail, because we need people who will tell us things like that in our lives. So I thought I was being really safe and low risk. I was just being super boring, super boring. And so it’s like, you know, I was showing up all [00:11:00] vanilla, whereas in person I was a spicy ginger snap. And that, after that lunch, I realized the, The complete conflict between how I was when I chatted with people, how I was visually, because I had a faux hawk and I had tattoos, but that’s not what was in my marketing.

It was all very low risk, very generic because I just wasn’t confident enough. I felt like I wasn’t a good choice if I showed too much of who I was. I wanted to focus on the copywriting, which I was getting clients at this point. I was getting confident in my writing, but it was completely behind a wall.

My business name is not my name. You know, I didn’t really have photos of myself. It was just very safe. And after that lunch, I was like, you know what, I think I need to show up differently in my marketing. So that’s when. I started [00:12:00] going, I need to shine a spotlight on the areas that will build trust and still help clients feel safe and feel confident about me as a skilled professional, but I also need to show up as me and trust that it won’t be a turn off and the most interesting thing happened is everything took off.

Everything took off there because it was more fun, it was easier, and people went, you look like fun, you look interesting. I wrote copy that had more personality in it. I showed up with more comfort online and it was like, All the walls that I had put up, making things harder for myself, were suddenly removed.

Mai-kee Tsang: I love this story so much because I’ve heard it from you before, but just hearing you tell it again, it’s very much a [00:13:00] permission slip to be yourself and whatever that looks and feels like because Yes. It reminds me of when you said, Oh yeah, my website is so vanilla. I can’t remember what the website is called.

I think it’s something time machine where you put your website in and it shows you what it used to look like with that same URL, like years ago. Have you ever heard of it? Oh, I’m definitely doing that. There is, oh gosh, I will, I will find that link and when I find it, I’ll pop that link in the show notes for anyone to try this out with your own website or my website, et cetera.

But I remember I actually worked with my brother in law and he built my website from scratch. But the thing is, he was so technically skilled and I was the one who had to give him direction, but I didn’t know how to direct. the creation of this website as to how it should look. And when I look back on it, yes, it was extremely vanilla.

And then I had a rebrand done in 2020. And to be honest, a lot of my branding is still [00:14:00] one I love. And I’m sure there’s a rebrand later on down the line. But what I loved about it was it was my best friend who’s like a very, very skilled professional in her line of She wanted to tap into the fun that she knows that I I have because I we’ve we’ve been friends in person and we’ve literally left the same company at different times and seeing each other businesses grow and she was like, do you know what I want to do an Easter egg hunt on your website and it’s still the number one thing I tell people to do when they go check out my website like yeah like yeah check out my office and everything but do the Easter egg hunt.

And I actually had clients tell me, Oh, I hired you because yes, you know, you obviously know what you’re doing in terms of podcast guesting and strategy and writing pictures, all of that. I loved your Easter egg hunt.

Belinda Weaver: That’s it. Like that’s being choosable. Yeah. It’s not being choosable for everyone, but the right people go, that was it.

That was the difference for me. [00:15:00]

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. So, all that to say, to all of you who are listening right now, if there’s a part of you that you’re holding back out of worry that you’re going to deter certain people away, that actually might be the case. Yes, you may, like, you know, kind of have a beacon around your business to say, hey, this is who it’s for.

And. Some people are going to turn away, but the right people are going to be so drawn to you like

Belinda Weaver: moth to a

Mai-kee Tsang: flame.

Belinda Weaver: Yes, and that’s the whole point. And you don’t need to be different to anyone else in your industry. You just need to be the right choice for the right people. And there’s lots of people looking for exactly what you are bringing, not only in terms of skills and service, but your energy and how you communicate, whatever that looks like.

So lean in.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. And that brings me to a point where I remember when I used to be a copywriter and I was just starting out and I had this, I think [00:16:00] this is where the issues arise when we worry so much about needing to be different and finding our unique selling proposition is because, because we’re new in the game, we need something to kind of like, hey, pick me.

And I remember a mentor telling me, they said, the thing is there’s always going to be someone who has. built up their skill more than you. You’re always going to have someone who’s further ahead in terms of their experience. That is just fact, right? And so there’s no point in trying to spend all of your time and energy and money to be that best, like you said, right?

So I feel like this conversation here is really shining that light on the missing piece that we haven’t really been told to look at very much. And I love that this is essentially a mission to be ourselves.

Belinda Weaver: Yes. Yes, and you know, often this shows up in conversations around niching, where in many industries, copywriting, especially choose a niche, become a specialist, you can charge more, the, your marketing messaging is [00:17:00] more focused.

Yes, yes, to all those things. But again, when you’re in your first year or so, so I speak to so many copywriters who are in a state of panic. I don’t know what to niche in. It’s the same question. I don’t know how to be different or unique. Just. Move it to the side and focus on the things that you are doing and can do.

And that will make you choosable. Those kind of uniqueness, niche questions, they will unfold in the fullness of time. But you have to keep moving forward. Don’t get stuck.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, and just to add on to that, I recently released a podcast episode on The Quiet Rebels about how it took me six years to find my niche.

And that’s proof that you have to try things out. You can’t just sit and wonder and think your way through it. You have to experience it firsthand because I didn’t like the idea of being [00:18:00] boxed in a certain industry or delivering a certain type of service, creating a set of product. And when I actually really looked at all of the clients I loved working with, You know, finding that red thread, I think they call that, right?

Like, what’s the thread that connects every single person I’ve loved working with? And then it came to me, it was like, they are people who not only care for their community and their clients in such a wonderful, huge way. human way, where they really account for the humanity, the life, when life is life thing.

Only do they do that for other people, but they also do it for themselves. And those are the kind of people who I love working with because they model what it’s like to be a real whole ass human, right? He was running a business and they appreciate that any person they come across in their business, whether it’s a community member, a client collaborator, they have their own life going on outside of what’s on their website.

And that was my niche, but it took time to get to that [00:19:00] point. And yeah, I just wanted to like add that onto this conversation because for any of you who’s listening, whether you are just starting out or you’ve recently done a pivot and you’re rebranding, this is all going to feel very new to you and that is okay.

But remember that there’s something that I call the Ascension spiral when The bird’s eye view, it may look like you’re just going in circles, like building your foundations over and over again, but if you actually look at the ground level. You’ve actually ascended and you’re actually covering the same ground, but with a new lens of experience and skill and choosability factors, which we’ll dive into just a second.

Yeah. I think it’s really worth sharing that, that each and every one of you who’s listening, there’s something for you to gain by just trying out different things. Absolutely. All right. So Belinda, for those who are like, yeah, all right, so being choosable, that sounds great and everything, but how do I start [00:20:00] doing that?

And I know you’ve got a systemized way that we can actually start figuring things, I can’t speak, these things out. So please

Belinda Weaver: walk us through your process. It’s everything needs a system. That’s how we operate. So this system came about partially because as I mentioned, I was found myself writing copy for very similar businesses over and over again.

And I had to figure out how to make them sound different from each other. So I was like, what can I talk about with your business that’s you know, different to the other plumbing website. But I also had to, I have to

Mai-kee Tsang: ask, how

Belinda Weaver: did you start

Mai-kee Tsang: attracting plumbers of all professions? Why plumbers?

Belinda Weaver: I don’t know.

I just went through a plumber phase in my coffee writing career. I just got a lot of plumbers, a lot of self managed super funds as well. I know a lot about self managed super funds so I had to figure out how to do it for them, but I was also figuring out how to do it for myself because as I said, I was like, Oh my God, I’m so new [00:21:00] to this.

I don’t have something that I feel makes me different to everyone else in the market. I’m just figuring this out. So what can I talk about in my marketing? That will still bring clients to me with that missing piece. And I wasn’t really missing at all, but you know, what can I talk about that will still bring people to me?

And so that’s really where the five piece come from. The first one is pertinence. So I’ll quickly run through them. Pertinence, passion, process, proof, and personality. And pertinence is really showcasing. That you are relevant, that you can solve problems and challenges for your audience, that you understand what they’re going through, that you understand what they want to achieve, and you understand why.

So we might talk about our pain points, we might talk about outcomes, we might talk about lots of things, but that’s really talking about what is happening [00:22:00] in your ideal client’s life. That might lead them to your door. So that’s pertinence. When we talk about passion, passion and purpose, this is just showcasing how we got started, why we got started, what we love about our work, what we hope to achieve by it, because your enthusiasm is a draw card for people.

Looking for someone to work with when I hire someone, I want to hire someone who is excited to do the work that we’re going to be doing together. So when you show up in your marketing, talking about what you love about your work, being excited about the projects, you’re about to start being thrilled for the projects that just wrapped up and went live, showing that passion for your work.

And shining a spotlight on it will draw people to you because they want to be [00:23:00] part of your enthusiasm. Then we have process. Now, this is such an easy one that so many people don’t cover off. Tell me how this is going to work. Tell me the first step. Tell me the next step. Because when I don’t know how it’s going to work, I will naturally feel uncertain.

I will feel fear because I don’t know. And if I don’t know, and then something surprising happens, I might feel embarrassed and a bit ashamed. Like there’s, there’s some pretty deep feelings that go on in this moment. Explaining your process to someone is like putting up the bumper rails in a bowling alley.

It just says, this is the path ahead, this is what it’s going to look like, here are the key milestones, this is what you’ll have to do, this is what I’m going to do, and here are the dates. And I’m like, yes, perfect, I [00:24:00] know exactly what’s going to happen, there’s going to be no surprises, I’m having my expectations managed in a way that is realistic.

Because sidebar, the number one reason clients are not satisfied is because they had different expectations to what was delivered. So the more you can say, this is how it’s going to work, the safer they will feel. And if you imagine a client looking at two different websites, one has a process explanation, how it works, here’s the five steps that we’re going to work through on a copywriting project.

And one doesn’t, which one will feel safer? It’s low hanging fruit to talk about the challenges of your audience and connect with them. It’s low hanging fruit to talk about what you love about your work. It’s low hanging fruit to say, this is how I work. These are all the steps and this is why they’re important.

And again, this is all stuff that pulls people to you.

Mai-kee Tsang: As soon as she said the bowling alley with the [00:25:00] what are they called? Bumper rails. Yeah, yeah, the bumper rails. As soon as she said that, I immediately went back into like my ten year old body, my ten year old body, when not only did I need the bumpers up every time it was my turn, because I was playing with my family, they’re all older than me, and parents, sister, everything.

Not only did I have the bumpers up, I also had that bowling ball slide. So all I had to do Yes, the ramp! Yeah, yes, exactly. I I was like, Dad, can you put the bowling ball, all I need to do is push it. If you can add not only the bumper rails, but also that ramp. So it’s just a light nudge for your client to do their part.

And then you’ll basically quite literally get the ball rolling. Yes. All the more for it. Yes,

Belinda Weaver: absolutely. And that’s what, when people, clients walk away going, Oh my God, that was an amazing experience because I felt I felt like I was led on this path. I don’t hire someone because I want to make a lot of decisions and run the process.

I [00:26:00] want to be led. So that’s where talking about your process in your marketing showcases that it’s not random. You are not making it up as you go along. There is a system in place and it also means when you have a process, you’re delivering consistently awesome results all the time. It’s not random, it’s not a

Mai-kee Tsang: fluke.

Oh, that is a nice feeling to have as a service provider, it’s like, yeah, no, I know my process inside and out, and it’s predictable, and it’s repeatable in terms of results for different clients and different niches, so.

Belinda Weaver: Yeah, absolutely. And then. We have proof which is a key part of marketing so it’s showcasing because remember i said people want to know that you can solve their problem that you have solved it for other people and so this is a lot of people get hung up on this like oh i don’t want to brag it’s marketing it’s not bragging.

It’s helping build credibility and trust with people who are saying, I want to choose you, [00:27:00] but I want it to be a low risk decision. And so showcasing different parts of the comments you would get from people, not only in terms of results, the experience of working with you. Different industries, different faces, different locations, like really mixing it up.

You can curate the experience people have, how they experience you before they experience you through the testimonials and other types of proof that you share. Because I want to see myself, I want to see the problems I’m having, and I want to see someone living through it and having an amazing outcome.

That’s what I want.

Mai-kee Tsang: Also, that’s a total side question when it comes to testimonials, but what do you think a testimonial needs to show in order for it to be a good one? Because there are such things as like, I wouldn’t say good and bad. I think it’s more about how reflective it is of the experience and results that they’ve gained by [00:28:00] working with a service provider, for example.

So yeah, just a quick side note. Is there anything that you feel like, okay, this is the proof we need to see?

Belinda Weaver: Specifics. Specifics, details. And so, I mean, I’m just looking at my confident copywriting page right now for where members can register. And I used to think that longer reviews were better and, and they are good, but sometimes there is too much.

So at the moment I’m going through taking wonderfully long, detailed, rich testimonials, and I’m actually breaking them up. To showcase different aspects. So I’m, I’m breaking them up and moving them around my page. So I’m saying when I’m talking about the experience that is in on offer, the coaching, the community, things like that I want to use testimonials that are very specific about those elements.

And. Emotive as well, but whatever that specificity is, it’s not just [00:29:00] like, it’s great value or I had a good time, like, you know, very, I try and I love the ones which have rich language because they, they showcase something a lot more human. And now we have AI writing reviews and writing reviews for people or as a job.

And so the specifics and the details. are the, are the things that ring true to us as readers.

Mai-kee Tsang: I’m just thinking about all the testimonials I have on my website and whether they actually reflect that. But actually, there’s one thing that I’ve started doing, and not just with clients, but actually people who hire me to do workshops in their private spaces. I actually offer to write a testimonial for them and then I offer like, hey, but please do like, I’m going to run it by you [00:30:00] just to make sure that it feels in integrity.

And if you want to add or remove anything, that’ll tell you that has been such a big resistance remover because I’ve done a lot of the heavy lifting. So if you don’t want to put words in other people’s mouths or anything like that, you can absolutely give them a direction because I think there’s a lot of.

Ambiguity around writing testimonials and what is a good one, especially when someone’s actually really happy that they’ve worked with you, but they don’t know how to write like a best testimonial to reflect their experience with you. So I’m just saying if you are a service provider or like, you know, you’re not just any business owner, you want a testimonial from your clients, then offer some direction.

If not, You know, some actual specifics of what you would like for them to write about you and you’d be surprised how much they’d be willing to cooperate with you on that.

Belinda Weaver: I like to ask questions like I have like, you know, a questionnaire and I catch it as I would love some feedback because that makes it a much [00:31:00] more instructive space.

So I’m not saying, can you write a testimonial for me? Here’s a blank page. Say whatever you want. Oh my God. No, I’m asking very specific questions that give them prompts to finish the sentence. And then I put that together for them and then I send it back and say, these are your words. Just tweaked a little, how’s this?

And they go, great. And but as you said, Maykay, how can you smooth the bumps out? How can you remove the points of resistance? Yes. And that is a way that you can do that. And some people will still give you really vanilla testimonials and bless them, that’s it. They still filled it out for you. But the ones that I choose to show will have specifics in them because they’re the things that someone reading will be like, that’s it.

That’s what I needed to read. Thank you. Yes. A hundred percent. A hundred percent. So we did pertinence, passion, proof, process and proof. And the last one is the [00:32:00] personality piece. Okay. And I left, I leave it till last because this is the bit that people have most, most, mostly challenged by. Cause I’m like, Oh my God, I have to showcase myself.

And why

Mai-kee Tsang: do you think that is, by the way? Why do you think that the most resistance around that showing our personality?

Belinda Weaver: Because that feels like. The area we might be most judged on. I feel like that’s the area that comes with the most baggage from youth. Oh, that, that hit me right in the chest. How interesting.

I don’t know if I thought about that before the words came out, but that’s, that’s where we are most vulnerable. We are really opening up to say, this is who I am. You know, because, and that’s why I like this framework of choosability because when we are feeling uncertain and we don’t quite have the confidence to be out there, and I love seeing people who are like, I’m a disruptor and this is who I am.

And I’m just out there. And I’m like, I love that for you, [00:33:00] but that is not me. That is not me. Like all these, giving myself all these other talking points helped me be out there and building my marketing messaging and attracting clients to me without being too vulnerable. Without being too out there, but eventually.

Eventually you really need to do to showcase who you are because the, you need to put Velcro hooks out in your marketing that what’s the Velcro hook? No, like the sticky, the Velcro that you stick together. Yeah. So that is made up of lots of little hooks. And you have the hooks on one side and you have the fabric on the other that sticks to the hooks.

That’s what keeps it together. And so a little sewing lesson here as well. I’m a little weaver on fabrics. But those hooks, like the fact that for me, that I’m obsessed with Doctor Who, that I have a pug that I have [00:34:00] kids, so I’m working around their school schedule, that I drink more tea than coffee, that I love lemon curd and marmalade.

I’m essentially the 90 year old woman. In the, your much younger body, maybe not much younger, but younger, you know, these are the things I kind of drop, I use Golden Girl GIFs and I have Jeff Goldblum GIFs and I do a lot of Doctor Who stuff, these are all just little hooks and for the wrong kind of people, don’t, nothing, no connection, but for some people.

They are exactly the little hook that they need just to bring us a little bit closer together. And I have a lot of conversations that start with the hooks that I put out there and I’m not sharing. Information that’s private to me that I’m not comfortable, I’m just giving people a sense of the vibe of what I’m like to be around because I don’t want that disconnect between how I show up in my marketing and then what it’s [00:35:00] like for someone to get on the call with me, I want it to feel seamless and part of that is not just the energy I bring to conversations and the energy I bring to my writing, but it’s kind of.

Here’s a little peek behind the scenes of my laptop. Here’s what my workday looks like. Here’s what my desk looks like. Oh my God. It’s what I’m reading. Here’s what I’m binge watching. Here’s what I’m listening to. They’re just little peeps that help people go. I think I get you and I think you’re my kind of person and at the end of the day when we have two people, the services are the same, the pricing is the same, the proof is the same, the process is the same, I’m going to choose someone who are like, I think I’m going to like the experience of working with you.

And it might not be likability, it might be values, it might be the core of what you believe in and you go, [00:36:00] yes. That’s why you, I choose you.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. It’s not just about how you do something, but it’s also why you do it. And my friend Tanya Basachar and I, we talk about how you can really stand out in your industry by standing up for what you believe in.

And I also add on who you, who you stand with, and that’s being very vocal about the groups you support. And that can really, I have deterred. several people away from my, from my line of work because they don’t fully agree with my values, how I support trans folks and people on the LGBTQIA plus spectrum who really advocate for anti capitalist business practices, all of that good stuff.

And I’m like, all right, thank you for, thank you for making that decision for the both of us because you wouldn’t be happy with me and I wouldn’t feel comfortable having someone who I worked with who actually misaligned with their values, for example.

Belinda Weaver: Yeah, and, and they get to choose someone else [00:37:00] then who is more aligned.

Yes, exactly.

Mai-kee Tsang: And I realized that you used another P that is not in these five P’s. You talked about pricing. Is pricing not Well Like, I know that’s a whole conversation in itself, but Do you know like a little, a little sidekick of the five P’s of choosability?

Belinda Weaver: It is, but it’s, you know, like the, the original The OG five piece of marketing are your, yeah, positioning, pricing, people, products and place.

And I don’t think price honestly has much to do with it because I mean, yes, I’m not saying that the budget is not a thing and people don’t have price points. But at the end of the day, if we want it, the number we find a way, it doesn’t matter. We find a way. So that’s why it feels. Less important.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, it’s not the determining [00:38:00] factor.

Belinda Weaver: Yeah. And it might be for some people. Yeah, it might be for some other people, but you’re with all these kinds of things. These are easy, easier things to talk about than what makes you unique slash different. And, and when you, when you take care of these other spotlight areas in your marketing, I think it becomes easier to also showcase.

Your personality, and you might start in little ways and then get bolder and bolder. And I feel like that, that actually is the secret to uniqueness all along, but it kind of ruins the picture, but you know, that, that is it. And that’s often when you find yourself with the confidence to start making stronger declarations.

This is true. Yes,

Mai-kee Tsang: when it comes to personality, not only like a couple of things came up as you were talking about this last P here well, first of all when you said like, oh, it’s the thing that we can be most judged on the oh I can feel it in my chest right there like [00:39:00] transporting back to high two Like the high school days.

Oh, no, like worst times of my life. But anyway I’d know. I also think something else that may play a role here in that resistance to showing our personality is because of the fear of not looking professional. And I think it sounds like from your own story about I’m having like a faux hawk and tattoos like this is not going to look professional.

And I thought the same thing about my, my Easter eggs. And I’m talking about anime and talking about X, Y, Z, that is. I talk about gaming and how I’m incredibly competitive when it comes to gaming. I’m an unrecognisable person to most people outside of this sphere. When they challenge me to a game of Mario Kart, I’m not even the best either, but I will, like, I will, like, if I get some red shells, or even better, the blue shells, I will hunt you down like an MFR, like, on that racetrack.

Belinda Weaver: My kids have had some pretty, pretty, Strong lessons. Simon and [00:40:00] I have played Mario Karts. That wasn’t nice. Oh, we’re not here to be nice. We’re not here to be nice.

Mai-kee Tsang: Oh, yes. And I am a very, I’m a highly sensitive person and it is, but it’s quite interesting that as soon as I’m in game mode, my partner knows that this is her only time that she can unleash fury at me and I can take it.

But outside of gaming, if she said that. That was a mean thing to say.

But yes, to the point that I was trying to make earlier before I got into my own personality yeah, that fear of not looking like a professional.

Belinda Weaver: I think there’s also the not enough too muchness. I know I vanilla’d myself, because I was like, Oh, I’ve learned that I think I’m too much, I’m too much, so I’m going to be in the safe zone and people might think I’m too quiet, or [00:41:00] I’m too this, I’m not a, not enough, like, it’s just, all of that can help us feel like we are we can’t showcase.

Our, our true version of ourselves. Now, we show up differently in different spaces. Gaming MakeA is different to Voxer MakeA, which is different to podcasting MakeA, all versions of yourself. So when we’re talking about being your true self, you, you get to choose the lens with which you show up. But I think the amount of friction.

That the energy that it takes to try and be someone we’re not, like that moment where Kate said to me, Oh my God, I thought you were going to be so boring because your marketing is so boring. Oh my God, that was the permission slip and whoever you are, just know that if you bring that to the surface and show it.

the right people will be like, yes, I’ve been looking [00:42:00] for someone just like this, just like you.

Mai-kee Tsang: And for someone, cause a, something that I do often hear in my community when it comes to the personality part, it’s like, but I’m a very private person, they would say, and they almost feel like it’s all or nothing in terms of how much they share.

So you, you gave some examples yourself of like how much you share that you talk about your pug, for example, and like, Fooling all animal lovers, like, you know, I definitely talk about my cats and they had their own highlight section on my Instagram, but for those who haven’t really found which parts of themselves to share, where would you recommend they start?

I mean, pets is an example, but

Belinda Weaver: yeah, I think it’s, it’s all the stuff that’s kind of almost at arm’s length, it’s plants and pets and books and TV shows. It’s, it’s those kinds of things feel easier. [00:43:00] They’re also a little more trivial, but that’s okay. That’s okay. It’s that you are sewing a quilt quietly in your downtime.

That, that actually tells me quite a little, a lot about you. But I think there’s that moment where you have to ask the question, like, am I happy for people to know that I sew? Or I, Love this particular type of book that I love anime, am I happy for people to know, or does it say something about me that I’m not quite ready to share?

And as soon as there’s friction, you know, there’s that balance between stepping, pushing ourselves a little bit out of, in discomfort, but also going, and does that make me uncomfortable? Does that feel too private and vulnerable? Then. Then, no, don’t share that. Build it up. Like, this is not something you can, you have to go, here’s a video of my house.

Are we friends? But you can go, this is the new, like, I love to show new mugs. This is a new mug [00:44:00] that I got. Oh, I love

Mai-kee Tsang: that. I do love that.

Belinda Weaver: It’s a small thing. See, and that’s it. That’s that reaction of people going, Oh, I love that mug. I have one that says, I’m a goddamn delight. And it’s my favorite thing. Or like, I got new flowers or my kids gave me this, like, you’ll find that you’ll hit a point and go, no, I don’t want people to know that I have kids.

That’s cool. But one of the things is I work with a lot of copywriters who are mums. Starting a business when their kids are very little. So when I share stories of my kids, I don’t share their names on social media. I call them Miss 10, Miss 7, you know, Miss 2, Miss 1. When they were young, people in my groups tend to know their names.

I don’t share their photos because that’s up to them to make that choice. But I talk about my kids being in elementary school that they’re 10 and 7 and we’re going through this. So when people are choosing which copywriting community they want to be a part of, knowing [00:45:00] that I am living through the family experience, that’s a, that’s a differentiator to other copywriting communities.

That’s what makes me choosable to the right people. The people I want to work with, so I’m not going to hide it, but I have my privacy checks on it.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, I love that. And I think that’s such an important question because as soon as you said about that filter question, like, am I happy for people to know this about me?

And as soon as you said anime, I felt something in my body. It was like, no, and that’s, that was interesting to me to actually feel in real time. And that’s, That tells me there is some work for me to do around why, though, why am I not fully comfortable? And I think what’s really cool is calling cards in your office.

So, for example, you and I have the same plant. Like, I know that people who are listening to this right now, you can’t see this, but we both have, I think it’s called Devil’s Ivy? Yeah. Or [00:46:00] pathos or something like that. Portos. Yeah. Portos. No, that’s the name of the master. I’m still new to. I’m still new to gardening it.

It lives so . Yeah. Yeah. It’s still alive and that’s what matters. Yeah. But there are a couple of things that you could have in your background and the right people will draw their eye to it. So for example, I was invited onto your podcast. interview, but I didn’t know the host. And so I asked if he was open to having a chat you know, just so we can get to know each other, to see if we’re on the same page, etc.

As soon as we got on, so we just finished saying hi, you know, the pleasantries, and then he has laser focused eyes, clearly, because there is a little art piece that I have on my shelf. And he said, is that Snorlax? And I was like, did you watch Pokemon? And he’s like, of course I do. And he showed me a plushie.

I showed him a plushie and then instant friendship.

Belinda Weaver: That like, that’s when we feel uncomfortable about showcasing [00:47:00] parts of ourselves, that’s the power. That’s a moment where people go, You, we are the same kind of people and loads of barriers just went do do do do do down. It

Mai-kee Tsang: truly, truly did. And I know a lot of podcasting agencies, but now he’s the one I’m going to think of because now I also know that his agency is made from a loving what’s it, wife and husband duo.

And he told me a bit about their story and I just thought it was really sweet how they’re supporting each other and all of that wonderful stuff. But that, again, that just goes to show that if you don’t directly say it, there can be indirect clues around you in your marketing or in, In your, in your office when you jump on a zoom call like there are plenty of ways to communicate beyond the spoken word just saying yes

Belinda Weaver: and I just and just to reiterate how powerful that small moment was that is the real choose ability.

And it’s just shining a spotlight on it, but all those [00:48:00] other things, they are low hanging fruit for you to start talking about lots of things that clients will absolutely choose you for, because there is a surprising number of businesses who don’t talk about them at all. So when you do. It does actually really

Mai-kee Tsang: stand out.

I love this so much. And just a side note on the Pokemon thing, for some reason I’m happy for people to know that I’ve loved Pokemon, grew up with it, because one of the easter eggs on my website, for anyone who’s interested in doing the easter egg hunt, starts on the homepage, one of the eggs is designed to look like Pikachu, which is a Pokemon that almost everyone knows because it’s such an iconic Pokemon.

But yeah, and when people see that like, It looks like Pikachu and like, yes, but I can’t use the name. So I say Eggachu. So all of the, all of the eggs have little names like, like Egglina, Eggachu, Eggwin. There are a lot of different things. I

Belinda Weaver: love it. And it’s just, you know, having sometimes like, it’s the courage to [00:49:00] go, you know what, I’m going to have a little fun with this.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes.

Belinda Weaver: And that whatever that part of you is go people don’t know people don’t really know about this about me or my friends my friends know this about lean in for this but most people don’t know about like what what is that thing can you showcase that a little bit more. In in the way you talk about your work because the people who know like they will notice the right people.

We’ll dial in and when you’ve built the trust and you’ve built the credibility through your proof and your process and you’re sharing your passion and they know you can solve their problem, that’s like knocking all the pins down. Yeah, if we’re going back to that bowling analogy, I’m back to the bowling, knocking all the pins down and it doesn’t have to be hard and just like that.

Oh, how am I different? You don’t have to worry about that. These are lots of things that you can talk about that build a runway to you, but ultimately it is the [00:50:00] personality piece.

Mai-kee Tsang: I love this because what you’re telling me is that there are so many different angles, so many different cues that you can kind of like seed out there and the right people will find them.

It’s kind of like not putting all of your eggs in the solution basket, as in you’re the solution to someone’s problem. That’s a basket. Let’s not deny that. Right. Of course. Yeah. Like, ultimately, someone is going to hire you because you solved their problem. But there are so many other eggs in other baskets that we get to do, and it just feels more fun and also a lot less pressure on putting everything on purely the solution oriented sort of way of thinking of why we should be chosen.

So I love this. So all of these five P’s, they sound fantastic, and for someone who’s listening right now, Belinda, they might be wondering, okay, but where do I start? Which P do I know needs the most? Support, which is the lowest hanging fruit for me. So as we start to kind of like come to a conscious close [00:51:00] to this conversation in just a bit, what can someone do after they finish listening to this interview in terms of how they can start finding their own choosability components?

Belinda Weaver: Well, I want to highlight that these five P’s are excellent five categories for social media, doing a post on your process, a post on your, how you got started, you know, even a little bit of that story, a post on a pain point, a post on a testimonial, a post on something about you. Easy. Social media rotation.

What I like to do is grab a big ass bit of paper, a really nice pen, and start doing a little bit of mind mapping. So, start with your process. Start with what feels easy that you know. And I think process is easy. How do I work? What are the 3, steps? Why are they important? And start listing everything you can think.

Like, why is it important? What is the outcome? What problem does it solve? Just blap a lot of ideas down. [00:52:00] Then when we’re thinking about our passion and our purpose, how did we get started? Why did we get started? What are our favorite moments in the day? What do we love most about our work? Small moments are so much more impactful, I think, than grandiose statements.

So it’s just sitting down and go, right, I’m going to set a timer for 15 minutes. I’m going to write down as many things as I can think of related to this bubble of a topic. And then you do that for each one. I mean, for personality, I have a website page that says, here are some things you probably don’t know about me.

And I think there’s like 20, 25, like some of them are really silly. Like I, my first concert was the village people. One is the Pantone color of the perfect cup of tea, fact, but these are just silly little things that you might, you know, build up over time. But the first step is to just mind map it, set a timer, pick a bubble that you feel comfortable with that you know about, and I think process [00:53:00] and passion are two easy ones, pick then do the pain points of your audience, then think of some personality bits, and all of a sudden you’ve got lots of things to talk about.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. I’m already starting to map mine in my head, I’m thinking, Oh, I’m gonna, I bought a new set of post it notes. And I think I’m going to use a lot of them doing this process, which is fun.

Belinda Weaver: And, you know, that post is a post. I bought some post it notes. I love new post it notes. I’m in ideation mode. Yeah.

Because then people like me, you just go, Oh, show me what the post it notes. So it’s just mind mapping, brainstorming to a timer. To go right, I’m just going to get as many things down as I can in 15 minutes because the time constraint forces us to get it all out in less time. I use it for everything. And then suddenly you’re like, Oh, I have lots of ideas.

I have lots of things to talk about. And this all feels easy [00:54:00] now.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, there’s still fun, actually, now that you said it like that. Ooh, okay. It doesn’t seem like hard work. It’s like, ooh, it gets to be fun when you actually, yeah, I’m getting excited to do this after, when I stop hitting when I hit the stop button on this recording.

But anyhow, so that is where we can start. So a time constraint 5Ps, whichever ones that, you know, feel the most easiest right now. Let’s go for the low hanging fruit, the higher hanging fruit, we can climb later, no worries at all. But I love that there are so many different ways in which we can be choosable.

And it doesn’t, we don’t have to be the best. I think that’s the, one of the nicest takeaways from this conversation is that, oh, I don’t have to be the best. I just get to be my best. Yes, about 100%. I wish I had a third point to kind of round off.

Belinda Weaver: No, let’s just leave it at [00:55:00] that. I don’t have to be the best.

I just have to be my best. And I heard a 10 year old say the other day, I don’t have to be the best. I just have to be better than the last version of myself. And I was like, Whoa, mic drop kid, but that’s it. And it’s just that acceptance going, stop stressing about. This thing that marketing textbooks tell us we have to have.

I love this. Get on with being awesome.

Mai-kee Tsang: All right. So Belinda, we have covered so much ground and I loved having you back on the podcast. And so there are two final questions I have for you, and then I’ll lovingly let you get on with your day. So number one, for those who have met you for the first time, or maybe they have listened to your previous episode, number 55, by the way, which I’ll link to the show notes.

But. Yes, for those who really want to stay in your orbit, where can they go find you on the interwebs?

Belinda Weaver: My business is called Copyright Matters. [00:56:00] And so my website, copyrightmatters.com is really my hub. I have lots of ways that we can start working together. I have a writing program, a coaching membership, and a mastermind.

I also have a blog that I commit to and I’m regularly posting on. So you can. Get emails from me. You can read blogs. And if you’re a copywriter wondering kind of what it is, you should be focusing on your business. I have a quiz that gives you where you’re at in the roadmap of copywriting and what you can focus on to move your business forward.

So there’s lots of ways that we can get connected. I would love people to say hello to me. I’m on LinkedIn. Instagram, probably the most. Yeah. I love your Instagram posts. Yeah. If you listen to this and anything resonated, I would love people to reach out to me and tell me.

Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. And share a photo with Belinda.

If you also have a pug or maybe just a dog or,

Belinda Weaver: yes, see right there. Absolutely. And any Whovians please, I will talk about [00:57:00] Dr. Who all day.

Mai-kee Tsang: All right, wonderful. And one final question that is actually very similar to the one that you’ve already mentioned. It’s the one that we kind of lean into. It’s like, Oh, my friends don’t know this about me.

But so my version of the question is what is one fun story or a weird fact about you that no one else knows on the internet? I should have given you a heads up. Sorry.

Belinda Weaver: I’ve got my thinking face on. I’m pretty, I’m pretty damn transparent. You know what I will say, because it’s top of mind right now, is that while, while I seem very confident on the internet, I, I’m actually not as confident as I show up.

So there’s not, you know, I’m still the same person and I absolutely love what I do, but I, I don’t talk about. Sometimes how difficult it [00:58:00] is for me to move through the discomforting moments, the discomfort of, of growth and doing new things. And it’s top of mind for me right now because I’m, I’m moving through those stages right now where I am trying new things and I am in growth where I’m coming out of my comfort zone and Oh, damn, it’s difficult.

It is difficult. So just know that there’s that behind the scenes. It’s not quite fun, is it? It’s not a fun fact. But yeah, there’s that always that behind the scenes of what it’s taking for someone to show up in the way that they are. And sometimes it’s super easy and sometimes it’s not.

Mai-kee Tsang: I really appreciate this about you that you don’t put on a show, you don’t put on a mask, you show the best parts of you.

And in certain spaces, you also reveal a little more about [00:59:00] the part of you that finds things hard. And I really I think that everyone who’s listening right now is like, Oh, okay. So, so Belinda also feels like this sometimes, as do I. And you know, you and I are in a chat with our friend Brenna. We share those moments.

So it’s very important to have spaces in which you can share those parts of you. It may not be everywhere and that’s okay, but it’s having these very specialized spaces where you get to be all of you.

Belinda Weaver: Yes, a hundred percent. And thank you, Maikei. I love that we have constant conversations together. You’re a wonderful influence.

Mai-kee Tsang: Likewise. Because like sometimes when I’m having a day, I’m just, I’m just sending messages to you and Brenna. I’m like, what do you both think of this? Am I, am I kidding myself? All that to say, thank you so, so much for coming back onto the Quiet Rebels podcast to talk about how we can be more choosable.

And I hope that everyone who’s listened to this today. feels just a bit more relief that [01:00:00] they get to be themselves more. And that’s the very reason why someone would choose them. Yes, a hundred percent.

Belinda Weaver: Thank you, Mai-kee. Thank you.