#138: Bringing the Body Into Your Business with Sarah Martin
If you’re someone who is looking for wisdom by tapping into your body’s language and cues, this episode is for you.
In this episode of The Quiet Rebels® Podcast, I’m super excited to be joined by Sarah Martin, a Certified Sex Coach and sociologist, to speak about how we can bring our bodies into our businesses for decision-making and beyond!
In this conversation, we discussed:
- Sarah’s Body Compass Process
- Tapping into your body’s awareness and sensory connection in personal and business contexts
- Tales of My Own Healing with therapy, martial arts & psychdelics
& more!
Click below for the links mentioned in this episode:
TRANSCRIPT:
Mai-kee Tsang: [00:00:00] Before you tune in to this episode, there are aspects of this conversation which may be covering some sensitive topics for you. So this includes being a trauma survivor, aspects of the healing journey, and including some very real life examples, as well as a graphic description of a psychedelic journey.
So please note that if any of these areas are of a sensitive nature to you, that this may be a time where you want to revisit this episode later, or to read the transcript instead. Okay, thank you so much.
Hello, my wonderful quiet rebels! So, in today’s episode, I’m joined by the one and only Sarah Martin. And we are going to be talking about how you can bring your body into your business and life in general. Because, I’m not sure about you, but I feel that we’re often encouraged and celebrated for [00:01:00] always bringing our cognitive brains to the table.
And while I believe that that actually is so important, I often think that we leave behind the well of wisdom that we can tap into. that is very accessible to us in our own bodies. We often talk about the concept of body language and I really like quite literally think of my body’s language and how it communicates to us through sensations.
And this episode is very much about really tuning into those sensations. What are the messages that are coming through? And truly becoming fluent in our body’s language. So I brought on the one and only Sarah Martin, who is going to take us through some practicalities of how we can go about doing [00:02:00] this in our businesses and navigating our day to day life as well.
So thanks so much, Sarah, for coming onto the podcast today.
Sarah Martin: So much. I’m so excited to be here and I can’t wait to dive into this topic with you today.
Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, absolutely. But before we do, let’s just take a step back for a moment because what I love about how we met, you actually have been a listener of this podcast for a while and we actually met in person at Atomicon last year in 2023.
So do you remember what that was like? I
Sarah Martin: honestly, I was so Happy to meet you there in part because we went to a meetup for introverts. Yes, which was fabulous because walking into the room and you could see everybody is kind of looking around and doing the shall I walk up and I think because it was an entire room and there were like, I don’t know 3040 people there.
Yeah. It felt like an
Mai-kee Tsang: extrovert gathering at one point, because there was actually so many of us.
Sarah Martin: Well, and as the, as the [00:03:00] evening wore on, we might’ve been mistaken for a group of extroverts, right? Because once everybody had relaxed into it, we could see, okay, yeah, these are definitely people I can connect with.
It all relaxed a little bit. But I remember we were standing at the bar and I didn’t. Recognize you right away because I think I’d heard your voice a lot, but I hadn’t looked at the at your pictures and it was like, do you want to share this two for one drink deal on, on mocktails? Yes. You were like, yes, and that was the beginning of a wonderful evening.
There were so many incredible people there as well. We were joined at our table. There was Louise Cartwright was there and Dan B was there. And who else was at
Mai-kee Tsang: our table? You are much better at remembering names and because. Like, I just want to also give a shout out to Fifi Mason, who was the one who actually did the meetup.
So thank you, Fifi.
Sarah Martin: Nods to Fifi. Thank you for organizing that. That was [00:04:00] so, that was so needed. And it was such a nice. intro. I felt icebreaker. And then the next day at actual Atomicon, it’s like, Oh, I know people. Yes. So yeah, no, it was, it was wonderful. So thank you so much for sharing drinks with me.
And then we started chatting and I’m like, Oh, great. I’m glad like we did all that other stuff. So I didn’t have a chance to be starstruck. So that was, That was my experience of hanging out at the, the introvert meetup.
Mai-kee Tsang: Yes. And I think that just also goes to show that, see, introverts aren’t necessarily like antisocial.
It’s actually not the case. It’s just that we’re very mindful of like who we spend our energy with. So it felt great to be in a room of people who already understood that and they felt it in their bones. And then it’s just one thing that we already had in common. So it’s fantastic. Yes. Yes. Absolutely.
All right. So today we’re talking all about the semantics of decision making. So I would love to know, Sarah, like [00:05:00] how did you even get into this work and like, what’s your background? I would love to know kind of your journey.
Sarah Martin: Well, how long have you got short versions? So since 2016, I’ve been a certified sex coach and sexologist and I have.
Over that time, I mean, the thing is when you start out as a helping professional and you’re a bit green, right, you’re at the beginning of your journey and learning how you’re going to work with folks and I thought I was going to come in this very knowledgeable scientist, I’d had all of this education stuff that I hadn’t learned myself when I was younger.
Right? Knowledge is power. And I got into this work and one thing I discovered the deeper I got into it is that sex happens in, with, through the body, right? The body is a really important component [00:06:00] of, of sex, of sexual interaction and play. And so many of us spend a lot of our time up here in our heads, right?
And especially me and the kind of people who would often come and work with me. So I worked with a lot of neurodivergent clients, a lot of folks with ADHD, autism, and so on. And I think, especially among this group, there was a really strong association internally of, you know, I’m an overthinker. Well, Sarah, what do I do?
I always overthink things. I overthink asking someone out. I overthink, you know, do I look good enough? Am I being sexy enough? I’m thinking, thinking, thinking all the time. And then, you know, that expectant look, how do I How do I stop the overthinking? It’s like, well, have you thought about getting into the body?
I, and, you know, like, I’m, [00:07:00] I’m jesting a little bit here, but it’s actually quite, A powerful thing sometimes when folks initially start to realize, Oh, yeah, I’m, I’m not that in touch with my physical body. And this realization early on started to inform my practice. And I came to learn that. There can be many reasons why you might be a bit, or a person might be a bit dissociated or out of touch with their body.
And that can run the gamut from traumatic experiences in life right through to if you live in a body that is, being overstimulated a lot because you are a neurodivergent person that has more sensory sensitivities than other people. Like sometimes you want to just, you want a break from that, right? So I think there’s a lot of people who maybe they don’t even know [00:08:00] it’s what they’re doing, but you find ways to pull out from the body to get a little break from that.
And the challenge can be if you’re not aware of how to mindfully Come back in. So there’s a broad spectrum within the work that I do, but one thing that has consistently come up with almost every client I’ve ever worked with has been getting cool with the mind body connection from a neurodivergent perspective.
Does that make
Mai-kee Tsang: sense? Yes, 100%. And I just want to say that for everyone who’s listening right now, even if you don’t identify with A form of neurodivergence. Please know that this conversation can absolutely still apply to you because mind body connection affects us all.
Sarah Martin: So I just want to correct. Yes.
Thank you so much for, for giving voice to that. In this case, speaking to my experience primarily working with neurodivergent individuals, being neurodivergent myself definitely [00:09:00] shows up in my work and we’re all human beings in bodies. So we sure are. We’re human beings and bodies in a society that’s oftentimes glorifying the intellectual realm and the realm of the mind and that’s not to knock the mind because it’s amazing that we have these brains and we can think up these incredible scenarios.
Imagination, if you kind of take a step back and overthink it, is pretty cool, right? And, and, if we only ever spend time there, we’re really missing. A lot of the story. So in addition to being a sex coach, I’m also a small business owner, and I work with a lot of other small business owners who are sexuality professionals.
And one thing that I think all small business owners have in common is we have to make decisions all the time, right? [00:10:00] And so one day I was stuck. I was stuck on a decision and I, I do incredible, I call it procrastination, where I will do literally anything other than the thing I’m having trouble making a decision about.
So very productive. But not productive at the same time. Like this is, this is my, my personal pattern. And, and I had tried everything, you know, I talked to trusted mentors and friends saying, what would you do? I sat and made a pros and cons list. I did a lot of research. I was reading up and do, do I do this or do that?
And I remember the moment of, I don’t know, like, you know, how you get that almost electric jolt from the universe and I go, hang on a minute, I’m doing the same kind of thing that, My clients are often doing when they’re thinking about whether or not to send a message on a dating app, right? Like I am thinking and thinking and thinking about it.[00:11:00]
I wonder what my body has to say. And I don’t know, is this a good moment to go a bit more in depth about what I did, or is that better to come a bit later? Shall I foreshadow?
Mai-kee Tsang: Love a good foreshadowing moment. I’m just like taking it all in at the moment, and my brain is very much still. stuck in a good way.
Like I’m not stuck in the past of what you’ve just said, but there’s something that still keeps following my train of thought and is what you said about sensory sensitivities. So this is actually something like just a quick side note here that so Sarah and I actually met at Atomicon and that is a UK conference and it was the first conference I personally have been to since COVID.
Right, so it had been a three year gap since my last conference and there was a couple of times when I really had [00:12:00] to get away from all the noise and I literally had to decompress in a toilet stool because it just felt too much and I wondered, is this just because I’m out of practice with having this much stimulation or is it just a matter of This is something that I’ve developed.
This is something I’ve always had, you know, all of those things were going through my brain. So when you said that those with neurodivergence, which I do identify with actually in multiple ways as a trauma survivor, I see PTSD and anxiety. So when you said sensory sensitivities, I was like, Oh, please tell me more about that.
Sarah Martin: Yeah. Well, it’s so interesting that you say that and I’ll try and keep the journey down this rabbit hole relatively brief because I think this is one of the unusual or unintended side effects of the experience through the pandemic, right? Is that a lot of us were fully away from these environments for an [00:13:00] extended period of time.
There’s a big difference between You know, having a couple months between conferences, right. And three years, but it wasn’t, and it probably wasn’t just the conferences, right. We were away from a lot of different types of crowded in person social interactions. So it’s interesting to think about, you know, was it, was it the, was it that you were experiencing that again after a long gap and, you know, being, you know, as you said, out of practice, or was it maybe that.
You know, maybe those. sensory sensitivities were always there, but we never had the pause to question them or to notice them. And there was always, at least in my life, this pressure to appear normal, right? It’s quote unquote normal, whatever that means. I’m making the air quotes, quote unquote normal, right?
And [00:14:00] this whole like, You know I like your example of running away to the toilet because that’s something I would often do like, oh, yeah, I, I don’t know why exactly, but I’m just going to go here, get away from peeps for a bit and then come back. So I think what’s great is that if you actually become conscious about this, that, oh, You know, if I’m in an environment and it’s the sound, maybe sound is what does it for you.
For other people, it could be touch, like the feeling of lots of people brushing by your back. I actually had a client where they really struggled to go on dates and bars because of that. In particular, the feeling of people passing behind them was too much, you know? So in that case, it was like, well, what about going to coffee shops where you can sit down in a chair and nobody’s touching your back.
They were like, great idea. Why didn’t I think of that? Because there’s nothing like minding your sensory needs is something that you can only benefit from. [00:15:00] Like it’s powerfully good. Like sometimes if I put my tinfoil hat on and I’m like, and that’s why they want to keep this knowledge away from us, because like, I don’t, I don’t think that’s necessarily what it is.
Right. I think we’re human beings having a human experience, doing the best we can. That’s how I choose to look at the world. But get curious would be my suggestion in cases like this and maybe pause when you notice it and ask the question, like, Hmm. You know, what’s, what’s happening here, and what do I need in this moment?
Because if it is the noise, it’s like, okay, you know, taking yourself away to a quiet place. If it’s the people moving, you know, can I get somewhere where my back is against a wall so people aren’t brushing it all the time? Or if, if there’s a really overpowering smell, can I move to somewhere where
Mai-kee Tsang: Oh yeah, definitely my sense of smell.
So, you know, candles? My, my future sister [00:16:00] in law, she loves burning candles in the house, and some of them have a, have a very strong sweet smell, and I really detest sweet smells. I don’t like spicy smells either, so anything with like, I like cinnamon in food, which is a slightly, maybe because it’s a different, sensory expectation.
When you see a cinnamon roll, you expect cinnamon, but my candle, no thank you. And it really bothers me. And I often have to ask her to like, put the candle further away from me because it literally it really overwhelms me. And actually how this all loops back, like, I promise I didn’t say that just the whole sensory thing just to kind of like ask a self serving question, but also.
I do wonder if that’s also why I may have been naturally inclined to have based decisions. based on how my body responds. So I always satisfy my logical brain when [00:17:00] I do the pros and cons list and just like really see like what’s the potential here etc etc. But I actually always use my body as the final decision maker.
So I listen to my body’s true language. So we say body language based on how it speaks and it speaks through sensations. Yes. And where it pretty much, for me in particular, when something feels really bad, like a decision is actually leading down a dark path for me, I literally feel a texture I imagine a texture on my chest, like black tar and it’s really sticky and it’s like, it’s hard to get off.
It’s very heavy. And that’s how I genuinely feel when something feels very bad. Misaligned when something is very off and when something feels really good My body is as light as a feather, it feels like there’s a globe coming from my chest. So I did wonder, like when you said earlier about sensory [00:18:00] sensitivities, I feel like I’ve naturally integrated some sort of like somatic elements into my decision making based on how I genuinely actually feel when I make decisions.
So that was just a curiosity thing.
Sarah Martin: So, and what you’re talking about. Make it is exactly exactly where we’re going with this and what you’ve just described in the way that you’ve put these sensations into words. So good you have such an advantage going into this because step one is identifying that there’s a feeling or a sensation there and step two is noticing it being able to describe it.
And the cool thing is right. The more I’ve used, I have a method I use called the body compass. The more I use this with clients. Or even friends or myself, [00:19:00] people feel different things and they have different meanings. So you know, it annoys me when I see the internet and it’s like, you know, Oh, you know, like sadness is stored in the hips.
And it’s like, well, maybe for one person, right? Like, I think sometimes we, we really yearn for those kinds of certainties. Maybe it’s like the certainty of the answer. Maybe it’s also the certainty that, you know, I am quote unquote normal. I think that’s something that affects everyone. Right. And it makes sense, right?
Like from an evolutionary. Perspective fitting in with the group, not getting left on your own was important to survival. So I think when we remember that we have this long evolutionary past behind us, some, some of these things make a ton of sense in that context. Right. But I digress somewhat [00:20:00] Right.
Coming back to it, there’s no single meaning to any of those sensations, right? So it’s not like every single person gets the, the sticky tar sensation that you mentioned. What’s important is that you’ve identified the pattern for you. That sticky tar means like, this isn’t something that I want. This is, You know, a very clear sign that I don’t want this the way that it’s going.
Mai-kee Tsang: And I do wanna say that I did not come up with this on my own. I have worked with a hypnotherapist who helped me put a voice and a label to what these sensations are. So I just wanna say like, like, I wish I was that a, a natural genius at this, but I’m not . I, I’ve done the work a long time ago. And I think.
What you’re saying is really important that the sensation is going to be different. So I would love for you to just share more with us about your process with clients of how you help them identify their own. Or, you know, reading their own [00:21:00] body’s compass, I guess.
Sarah Martin: So one thing I found a lot in my work and because I’m thinking both the context of working with my sex coaching clients who throughout my career have predominantly been neurodivergent men and then also thinking about my work with other sexuality professionals, right?
And they’ve been predominantly people who identify as women. That
it’s quote unquote, normal to struggle at first to put feelings into words, right? And I think also a note for neurodivergent people in particular, there can sometimes be this confusion about, well, what do you mean by feeling like, what does it mean? It’s this amorphous thing that people talk about. Well, what do you mean?
Feelings like happy, sad. And I think some of that’s [00:22:00] because. If you’ve had to learn about social interaction. Deliberately, right, which a lot of autistic people do, then, you know, you might have learned that, oh, when a person is, you know, frowning and crying, that means that they’re sad. And so that’s what sadness is.
And maybe not understanding that well, sadness might show up in a different way in your own body. And. There can be some of this confusion around words and about what a feeling is. So I often begin by saying, you know, we’re just going to observe, we’re just going to see if anything comes up and, and nothing might, and the approach that I take in the body compass is making use both of story and the power that narrative has, and then making use of [00:23:00] this.
observer that we have inside of us, right? It’s one of those concepts in mindfulness that there’s, you know, the active mind, but then there’s also that quiet presence behind it that just observes things. And so I ask my client, my friend, I ask whoever, you know, what is, what is the decision that they’re stuck on?
Okay. And then when we know what the, the decision they’re trying to make is, I, I usually ask some coaching questions. So I want to get the context. I want to get the understanding, like, what’s the story around this? Where are they at this point in their life? What are some of the things that they desire in general, be that within a relationship or within their business?
And then what I do is have them take some grounding breaths and then I start telling them stories. So I’ll usually tell a story and I try to make sure to incorporate sensory elements because that’s part of [00:24:00] how we already begin to involve the body. So I might say, You know, it’s a crisp October day. And when you open the door, you can smell the leaves as they crunch under your feet on the ground.
And then I go into whatever the next part of the story is. And I tell the story from perspectives. Of different decision paths, right? So I might tell them a story where they decide to keep dating this person or I tell the story where they decide to be single for a bit, or I tell the story where they decide to Be polyamorous, right?
And I tell the story as if it has already happened. Part of setting the stage for this is, is letting them know, like, it’s a story, it’s a fiction. So I might not get the details exactly right. And it’s less about, you know, telling a perfect story with the perfect [00:25:00] details and much more about seeing how you react to hearing the story.
Does that make sense? Oftentimes I will tell the story, I’ll get to the end and then I’ll ask them, okay, what do you notice in your body right now? And it might be, you know, I’m tapping my feet. It might be my throat feels really tight. It might be, you know, my palms are sweaty. It might be I’m smiling so big right now.
And, you know, okay. So we just, and then I say, and what else and what else and what else until there’s nothing else. And then we move on to the next scenario. And I will generally do somewhere between three and five, right? Cause humans are pretty good at holding three to five bits of information and working memory.
So I try not to do more than that, but I also try not to do just a binary [00:26:00] decision because I also think that’s a bit too restrictive, right? And. Then at the end, I will often ask them, okay, so what have you noticed through this process? And then what actions would you like to take? So my, my goal in this is to give people a way to access their body as an ally in their decision making process.
And people are often surprised by some of the insights that they get. Or they may not have ever noticed, you know, that they have a certain feeling before. And if it’s like, Oh, you know, it’s my chest feels itchy. Could that, and they’ll be like, does that count? And I’ll be like, yeah, yeah, it counts. A caveat here is I always tell folks that I’m working with [00:27:00] that, you know, at any point they can stop.
It’s absolutely fine. And usually at the point that I’m doing this in a relationship with a client. or a friend, we’ve already established a basis for working together, right? I think when you’re trying this for the first time, it’s worth being mindful that if you ever get, like, if you start getting a really uncomfortable feeling, stop.
There’s no prizes for pushing through any of these things. And I always suggest people, if it’s their first time doing this, to pick, like, a relatively chill decision. So maybe something you’re struggling with, but where, you know, it doesn’t feel like a big thing. It could be like, you know, do I want to take a, do I want to take a holiday in the summer or the fall?
You know, that could be a great one. To start with, that’s a [00:28:00] decision I’m trying to make myself at the moment, right? Which is a little bit different than, you know, do I ask my partner for an open marriage or not? You know, let’s maybe start at the thinner end of the wedge as it were. So I realize I’ve just talked a lot.
I want to check in and see, you know, does that make sense? Is there anything there you’d like me to go more in depth?
Mai-kee Tsang: I love what you said about there are no prizes for pushing through. I feel like that’s definitely a quotable for this episode because you know, we live in a world where we’re often conditioned, if not encouraged, celebrated to always push beyond our bounds, but actually some wonderful things can happen when we are within our realm of safety and consent.
So I loved that from what I’m gathering from, you know, as you shared and walked us through your process with clients that you Have consent woven into each Each section of it, which I really appreciate, you know, me, [00:29:00] like, love, consent, wherever possible. Yes, yes. And everywhere. And so I’m curious to hear from you, like, we’ve talked, or rather, like, you’ve shared a lot about, you know, incorporating this, but just for people who are listening right now.
Is there anyone who actually may not be a great fit for this? Involving their body and decision making at this time.
Sarah Martin: Yeah, so I would say if, and so this is where it’s tricky, right? Because sometimes folks are carrying trauma or living with trauma, and they’re not aware that that’s the case. And I mean, I would actually put myself in that bucket for a period of time.
So I think some of the clues to watch out for is, again, for me, there was often this really big feeling of unease that would come up. [00:30:00] Like, like the way I would describe it as like, like something is going to come around the corner would kind of be this feeling I would get in my body. The thing is, it might feel very different in yours, but for me, it was, it was like a subtle feeling.
Sense of not quite foreboding, but something in that direction. And in the past, like, if I think about, like, I used to go to, like, I tried, I tried for the longest time to get into meditation and I would get a bit of a sense of unease but also would also get it in yoga classes sometimes. And on the one hand, I think if somebody had said, Sarah, you can’t do yoga because.
You’re carrying trauma or Sarah, you shouldn’t meditate. I would have been like, who are you to tell me that I can’t do these things? And like the journey [00:31:00] with trauma, like it takes a while, right. And learning about things like somatic experiencing. And I did some work with a somatic experiencing practitioner.
And you know, I’ve done some work as well with You know, with other trauma aware practitioners around specifically trauma in my own life. So like, I say all of that to say, I don’t think we have to get to a perfect place of having no trauma at all before we can form a relationship with our own bodies.
Like, and maybe that’s controversial because I do see this a lot in my space with people, you know, Placing lots of caveats, and I think it’s important because, as you mentioned just a moment ago, right, we’re often brought up with the idea that, you know, pushing through gets rewarded when all it does is really burn you out, right?
[00:32:00] So, having frequent reminders That it’s okay to stop also because a lot of people even if you say it’s okay to stop right people have been conditioned that way you can’t do that or that’s rude or you paid the money to come to the class so this is my own particular family system right like you paid the money for it so you have to do the thing like you can’t just leave because you feel uncomfortable it’s like well no you can’t You I say that to myself now, but I’m just calling out there’s some complexity.
So my suggestion with anything somatic is always ease yourself into it. And if you start to get this edgy feeling or uncomfortable feeling or sense of foreboding, or this feeling like, okay, I just have to push through it a bit and then it’ll go away and I’ll be fine. It’s more an invitation to get curious about what that might be.
And to understand that it takes time, I think part of [00:33:00] what helped me in building up my capacity for, for sensuality and for relationship with my body was to, to go at a pace that felt so frigging slow compared to the speed of everything else in life, right? You can’t really rush somatic awareness as much as you might want to.
And so for me, like, You know, start where the pleasure is and build up from there. I would say I would encourage you if you think. are suspecting, okay, hey, there might be some trauma here to, to find a practitioner that you trust to work with on that. I think that’s great general advice. And then in terms of, you know, with your own body, like start, start slow.[00:34:00]
So I can’t say that there’s categorically anyone who You know, quote unquote, shouldn’t do this, right? But more, you know, start slow and see how you go. Does that make sense?
Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, it absolutely does. And as you were speaking, I was thinking to myself where it felt safe and unsafe in my perspective of leaning into my body more.
So may I share a little of what I’ve learned? Oh, yes,
Sarah Martin: please. Thank you.
Mai-kee Tsang: So I am a survivor of sexual trauma. I’ve had multiple accounts of it in my late teens, early 20s, and it has been something that has been an ongoing healing journey for me. And I feel like I’ve definitely made some huge strides. I wouldn’t say I’m quote unquote healed full stop, but I, it definitely has, it feels more like a distant echo these days than it used to [00:35:00] be like a vice grip.
And I learned some very important things across my journey of healing. So I have used multiple modalities, I’ve used traditional therapy. I have learned martial arts, I dance, I I’ve used crystals, chakra healing, and I’ve also explored using psychedelics. And so a couple of things I’ve learned from these experiences is there was one particular move in martial arts that always for some reason triggered me and it’s because in that move, my legs get grabbed and I’m meant to fall.
forward on my front. So we are taught how to fall safely, whether it’s front backside or rolling or something like that. Right. And so in this case, I had to do a front break for, but for some reason I would always be triggered by it. And I couldn’t understand why am I so upset when I know how it’s supposed to work.
[00:36:00] And my sensei, he knows my trauma history. So he has always like, been quite inviting and like have not pushed me, which I’m very grateful for. And then when I took this back to my therapist, she said to me, it’s because your, your instinct, In fight or flight or freeze or thorn, in a case like that is to run, to take flight.
But in this case, because your legs are taken away, because they are being held where you have nothing but your hands, that’s what’s triggering you. And that was like, wow, like big mind blowing moment, wow. And so that was very intriguing to discover. And what I’ve also learned. In my psychedelic journey, so I have done ayahuasca, and I recently tried magic, they’re not mushrooms actually, they’re truffles, and apparently there’s a difference, but they both have psychosilabin, [00:37:00] but anyway what I found fascinating about that aspect was that all five of my senses They were, I wouldn’t say compromised, but they were altered, I should say.
They were altered in the experience. My sense of touch was off, my vision was off, and my sense of smell, taste, the only sense that kept me grounded to the world was my sense of hearing. So I feel that my sense of hearing is my core anchor of all of my senses. So that, so long as I hear something that feels reassuring in this particular case, it’s hearing the voices of my friends who were there with me because they were, we were all dripping differently, right?
Mine was very, very, very strong, very I had very deep alterings of my senses, which I found fascinating. And even though one of them was trying to hold my hand, you know, to keep me calm, I couldn’t always feel [00:38:00] it. And I couldn’t talk either sometimes. And it, I thought it would scare me, but it didn’t because I had one of my senses that was anchored.
So I think what I’m taking away from that and why I’m sharing this right now is that there may be some of your senses That don’t feel safe to explore. So for example touch is a huge thing for me and martial, the martial arts, I do Japanese jiujitsu, it’s very touch heavy because it’s, yeah, yeah.
Grappling is a lot of throwing. So to me, I can understand from a sensory perspective why it feels very, it’s a lot to ask of me to do it. because that is the one sense that I associate the most with my past trauma. So I think it’s an invitation as you’ve been saying, Sarah, that it’s an invitation for us to start where the pleasure is, it’s to start where our curiosity is, and it’s being okay with With the fact that not all of your senses may be available to you at the [00:39:00] time of leaning into the somatic side of whether you’re using it for decision making or for another aspect of your life.
I think it’s just something that I really wanted to bring to this conversation today from my own experiences that in my case, not all of my senses feel safe all the time and it’s a very conscious effort. So I, like, there’s a reason why I’m always under blankets. It’s because the texture makes me feel safe.
I remember when I was a kid, I learned as a highly sensitive person, apparently textures are particularly soothing for highly sensitive children. So I remember every time I got nervous or upset there would be the dress on my rag doll that I would use to kind of like twiddle between my fingers and there was something about it that made me feel safe.
So for me, if my sense of touch is the thing that heightens my stress and anxiety the most, or is the most likely to re trigger me. Clearly, there are other textures that I seek that Bring me a sense of anchoring. So it’s why I go to my cats. I [00:40:00] stick my face in their fur when they’re sleeping and I’m hearing them purr and it really calms my system.
So I think it’s again an invitation for everyone that I am NOT an expert in this. This is 100% a reflection that I want to share. I do not want this to come across as a projection and it’s just an invitation for you to get curious about which senses feel the most safe for you to explore and to involve and incorporate in your somatic side of decision making and so on so forth.
Sarah Martin: Thank you so much for sharing all of that with us. And it’s really beautiful what you’ve said. And I’m, I’m sitting here and I’m like, yes, yes, yes. And that’s another thing I would challenge a bit, right? That on the one hand, Yes, consulting experts, seeing folks who are trauma informed to go with you on that [00:41:00] journey.
And, you know, thank you for mentioning taking an approach with multiple modalities. I think that’s more common than not and worth highlighting because all of them can contribute something to a healing journey. Right. Mm hmm. And at the same time, you are the foremost expert on the experience of living inside of your body.
And this is true for anybody who’s listening to this, this episode, that you are the expert on you and we don’t have to, this is maybe me projecting my experience, right? But you don’t have to. Seed your, your power over the knowledge of, of what it’s like to, to be in your body to, to folks outside. I think there’s a balance to be struck there.
And it seems like you’ve gained such powerful knowledge. I’m [00:42:00] curious. Meike, would you like to hear a really neat thing you can do with your ears? Oh, since you mentioned, since you mentioned sound as particularly powerful and grounding and pleasurable for you. So this is one, I learned that I learned with a practitioner that I was working with, and I, I refer to it myself as depth hearing.
And so for this exercise, you close your eyes. And first, you try to hear something that’s nearby, right? In my case, it’s the, the radiator helms. So I can hear that really easily. And then can you try to stretch your ears and hear something the next room over? Yeah. Can you hear the refrigerator buzzing over there?
I’m really good at hearing mechanical buzzes, right? And then, okay. And now can you hear something even further away? [00:43:00] Something outside the window or maybe upstairs or downstairs? And then once you’ve found a couple of different sounds, can you move your awareness throughout space to these different sounds and play around with it?
A little bit.
then come back. How does that feel?
Mai-kee Tsang: Well, I can hear some sounds around the house right now and I’m like, I messaged the fam I’m doing it. So I’m very hyper aware of the sound around me. And I need to remember that my microphone is actually on a setting where it’s actually meant to block that out. So I need to remember that.
But yeah, when, for me, I’m a very visual person. I think I’m very, I think it’s clairvoyance. I think that’s what it is. And. I can visualize where the sound is coming from. So for me, I feel like have you ever played a [00:44:00] VR game or a VR? Yes, yes, yes, yes. So for VR stands for virtual reality for those of you who are listening and not quite sure what it is.
And because you’re actually static in space, you’re staying in the same spot, unless you’re on a omnidirectional treadmill, which is quite rare, but aside from that, You typically have to turn, but you’re staying in the same space. And typically you would have a controller and it zips you to the next spot.
Right. You kind of like project where you want to go, like, and it, it will indicate where you, where you go when you click the next button and then you zoom there. So when you’re taking me for that exercise, I felt myself zooming back and forth to the rooms around the house. And I can hear like when my cat is running up and down the stairs or when doors are closing in particular.
And yeah. So I’m, I’m curious, like, what is it about that exercise that, like, what is the purpose and benefit of that? So I’m curious.
Sarah Martin: So. Coming back to the realm of sexology for a [00:45:00] moment, part of, part of helping people relax into sexuality and into play with a partner to come out from the head and into the body a bit more.
My teacher, Dr. Patty Britton, she used the expression FOPS, Focus on Pleasurable Sensations, and learning how to focus on a sensation, right, to take that thing that normally lives between our eyes or behind our eyes, right, and move it to another part of the body. That’s a skill. And doing the, the depth hearing, the thing that we just did.
It’s kind of like flexing that muscle. It’s practicing that skill. It’s focusing on the sensation of sound and looking, and I say, look, like I use so many visual words because like my visual sense is incredibly [00:46:00] strong. And so I often have to close my eyes to focus on anything else. Right. And it’s so interesting how it comes out in the language that I use.
I am noticing it in particular just now. Cause I’m like, you’re looking with your ears and you, you said something similar to that. It’s quite common among sighted people for visual sense to be dominant. So how I often describe this to folks who are trying this out for the first time, or I always give the example, like, have you gone to a yoga class?
And the teacher’s telling you, focus on your breath. And instead of it being relaxing, it’s like focus on my breath. Oh my God, I’m aware that I’m breathing. How should I be breathing? Should I be breathing faster? Should I be breathing slower? And it, it wasn’t until I figured out that basically, oh, what that means is not like think about breathing.
What that means is take the thing that’s [00:47:00] normally behind my eyes and move it down to my lungs, right? Look at myself breathing rather than think about myself breathing. That’s not even like it’s, does that make sense? That, that thing that observes. Move it around, move it down to feel the breath, or in the case that we just did, right?
Move it to, to your ears and really hear. I do this exercise with my son. I’m like, Okay, we can open our eyes and listen to the sound of the fan. Now if you close your eyes, really focus with your ears. It’s like it gets louder, isn’t it? It’s a small example of Like practicing the skills of sensory awareness that can be used for pleasure and hedonism and debauchery and all of those wonderful things.
But it can also be used at, at the level of self soothing as well, right? It can also be used. For [00:48:00] just the enjoyment of being and I always used to get frustrated, right? Because I would hear people talk about these things or I read like Eckhart Tolle’s The Power of Now and I was like So much of this doesn’t make sense to me It makes sense to me now and the piece that was missing for me to make sense of all of this was my body right Like that is what made meditation possible for me was working with my body, right?
And in terms of experiencing pleasure, in terms of relaxing and relationships, and then also in terms of decision making that the body as the missing piece in so many aspects of life, I think is an experience, an awful lot of us share, right? And there’s a powerful wisdom that comes from that. And there’s often this You know, speaking about decision making, you [00:49:00] know, that there’s often this clear yes or moving towards, or a very clear no and backing away from that can come when we choose to focus on our sensations in the same way we just focused on, can we hear things in different places?
I know that was a bit of a tangential way to come around, but I’m hoping that gives a little bit of clarity to how, like, even something as small as what we just did can be connected to making much better decisions.
Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, I’m definitely taking it all in. And what I, I’ve, now you said it. I am now also aware of how much visual language I use when I see except because when you were describing The depth of hearing and how you can apply it to different senses and in some instances not all It made me think I imagined my body and how it has like its own aura [00:50:00] and this practicing the flexing of the muscle kind of extends that aura and it’s what allows our sense of hearing to expand beyond our immediate space to the adjacent space and what’s downstairs or upstairs, depending on where you’re situated, or what’s going on in the street outside of your flat or house whatever.
So it’s just really, it’s really fascinating and it’s like, it’s a lot to take in. So I’m just curious to hear from you, Sarah, for someone who has never done this before, or they have seldom practiced bringing in their body when it comes to their everyday life experiences, decisions, where is the easiest place they can start?
Sarah Martin: So, some of that will depend on what senses you, you like using, what senses you enjoy and what feels safe, what feels good to you. So, pay attention to pleasure. A place where I would [00:51:00] start most of my clients, because for an awful lot of people, The following sounds appealing would just be like a mindful shower and all that is like, that’s a very, you know, we have to have names for everything because it’s fun to name things.
But all that is, is choosing a point in the shower where you just Pay attention. And in this case, like when I do it, as I try to find somewhere where it feels really good, where the water’s hitting my back. I’ve got it a good temperature, I’ve got it on just the right place. I have a tattoo on my back. So it’s often when it’s touching that because that skin is particularly sensitive.
And then like, can you go more into that sensation? Right? Can you really feel how it feels when the water is touching that place and like. Allow yourself to feel just a little bit more how good that feels, [00:52:00] right? Cause sometimes at first, when you first start this, if you try and you’re like, yeah, that’s okay.
But there’s like nothing that’s special about it. Or, eh, I don’t feel that much. That can be really normal. Right? So the thing that’s handy is a lot of folks are taking a shower, you know, every day or every other day, and it’s a time that’s like private and you’re alone. And. taking just that moment to, to notice and see if you can let yourself feel a little more and a little more and a little more pleasure.
It’s like a really nice way to practice. And then, you know, when you get good at it, then you can become a bit of a shower slut. And then, you know, the people you live with are unhappy because it’s like, get out of the shower. You’ve been in there for half an hour. We need to conserve the water, save the planet.
You know, I just, but like the point being that, yeah, you know I think that’s one thing that can be really encouraging once you find the way in for [00:53:00] you. So, you know, it might not be touch. It might be sound. It might be taste, right? Like there’s the famous raisin exercise, right? Where you like really slowly, Eat a raisin and can you taste it?
And can you, you know, do the tastes have textures, right? Like this is, this was quite famous in the seventies, but it’s, it’s, it’s a basic point that like, yeah, if you focus that energy on any given sense and you practice. What you can do with that sense, it can be a powerful way. And so finding something small, like another way to get started a thing I like to do if I have like back to back to back zoom calls, I like to just gently, like very gently run my fingernail on the palm of the opposite hand.
Because for me, that’s really calming, but it’s also a sensation that brings me back down into my [00:54:00] body. Because I’ve noticed, I don’t know if you’ve noticed this as well, if I’m just on a screen, on a screen, on a screen, I can start to feel like I’m these disembodied eyes and mouth floating in space. And like the whole rest of everything is offline.
Whereas just that simple act, another thing, like some people, temperature is a really, And like that’s, that can be a door as well. So like, if your desk is cold, putting your hand on your desk and feeling the cold desk or lots of people, I mean, you see this a lot, like people, when they’ve got a warm cup of tea and holding it with both hands and really feeling that heat.
Yeah. Yeah. Like the boiled down to the simplest essence, right. It’s. focusing on feeling. And there’s many different ways to do that. Focusing on sense. So I know you asked for like, what’s the simplest way to start? I mean, if you want, like, my answer is [00:55:00] like, the shower, because of all of the aforementioned reason, and because I’m on a secret mission to fill the world with shower sluts.
But or the other thing too, is like, you can also, if that, is even a bit too much. The method I talked about earlier, the body compass, you can do it with yourself by thinking about what you’re deciding and then writing the stories and then reading the stories aloud to yourself. So that can also feel really comfortable as a place to start.
If you’re much more accustomed to being up in your head, if starting from the Intellectual and writing level feel safer. That’s been the case for some of the clients I’ve worked with. My only suggestion would be right with your hand rather than typing. Because that even that small action of writing with your hand.
is starting to involve your body in a much more sensual [00:56:00] way, right? You’re holding the pen, your hand is on the paper, your hand is on the desk, you’re seeing with your eyes what’s coming out when you write, and writing those little scenarios as if a thing has happened. Like we, many of us will know about that from the idea of affirmations right, that you say as if a thing has already happened I don’t necessarily think that the universe rearranges itself around our declarative statements, but I do think those declarative statements provoke sensations in our bodies when we hear them.
And those sensations are such powerfully valuable bits of information that are there waiting for you when you start to practice noticing them.
Mai-kee Tsang: Yes, I feel that it’s like the universe doesn’t necessarily rearrange its stars for us, but I think when we do [00:57:00] vocalize it out loud, it kind of springs us into action.
It activates something and it helps us see things in a way we haven’t before, because we’ve taken that step forward. And it may, it may come across that the universe has rearranged the stars for us, but actually we see how it’s rearranged for us. That makes it, no, rather we see that it’s arranged for us the way it’s meant to be.
That’s how I see it anyway.
Sarah Martin: Or maybe it’s that we’ve rearranged ourselves. Yeah,
Mai-kee Tsang: maybe. Yes. All right, Sarah. So we’ve definitely covered a lot. And I think for those of us who are new to semantics that I’m definitely going to be taking it in and, you know, re listen to this episode as much as they need to.
And for those of you who are being curious, you’ve tried a bit, hopefully the direction that Sarah has provided will, you know, help your journey along with this. And I hope that you walk away with some real tangible way that you can do this and just permission [00:58:00] for yourself to explore. So Sarah, for those who are interested in staying connected with you, where are the best places that they can connect with you?
Sarah Martin: Yeah, the very best place to go is my website. That is dignifiedhedonist. com. That’s dignifiedhedonist. com. I’m actually in the process of Removing myself almost entirely from social media, which is, my body says, hell yes, so I’ve made that decision in a corporeal sense, as well as an intellectual one.
So that’s the place to come and connect. And yeah, I would love to, to hear from you.
Mai-kee Tsang: Yeah, so I’ll be sure to put that link in the show notes and before you go, I’ve just got one final question for you. Are you ready for it? I’m
Sarah Martin: ready.
Mai-kee Tsang: So we have seen your, we’ve experienced as well, [00:59:00] your area of expertise today.
And I just want to like, bring more dimension to you by asking you this kind of random question, isn’t it? But it’s one of my favorites that I love asking guests, and that is, what is one fun fact or story about you that no one else actually knows on the internet?
Sarah Martin: So I think this is a story that some people who know me IRL know, but that I don’t believe is anywhere on the interwebs is that for, I think from when I was about age five to probably 14, I was a competitive swimmer.
And in particular would do long distance events. So I really loved like the 5, 000 yard freestyle, right? The long ones. So endurance swimming in particular, the sprinting, I was never great at, right. But that was a really formative part of my, my younger years. [01:00:00] And. It’s one of those things where I’m like, Oh, you know, my swimming accomplishments, they seem like nothing compared to my mom, who I love.
And then she, she does, she swum the English channel. She does like the huge marathon swims. So I, I, I had to shout out my mom on the podcast cause she’s great. But yeah, so it used to be a competitive swimmer. That is
Mai-kee Tsang: very, very cool. I have not been competitive in any sport whatsoever. So, you know, kudos to you.
Thank you so much for sharing that with us, as well as your heaps of expertise in semantics today, Sarah. I really, really appreciate you. Thank you so much for coming on to the Quiet Rebels® podcast today.
Sarah Martin: Thank you so much for having me and I hope everyone has a really wonderful day.
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